Bulletin Board #22a

#10
Subject: Re: Frequency found

My original inquiry:
Believe it or not, I'm getting closer to getting caught up with work and travel and will be getting the BB messages up again in a few days (unless more work comes in).

But right now, I've got one you tech types might want to look at.

I was in Reno, NV yesterday and was using the Optoelectronics Scout as a near field detector (after having completed the spectrum check with the A-3). It turns out we picked up a signal (879.745) and localized it to an area of the facility by using the bar graph on the Scout as a signal strength meter. The Scout was getting returns over approximately a 50 foot diameter. I looked at the signal on my A-3 receiver and it didn't seem to contained any intelligence, but it was a very strong signal and contained lots of noise.

The area where the signal appears to be localized contains cubicles and does not deal with any kind of sensitive information (of a nature which would warrant the installation of such a device). The signal was strongest near the ceiling of the first floor and the floor of the second floor (of a two story building). There is a suspended ceiling about 5 feet below the true ceiling. The ceiling is a layer of heavy corrugated type steel with reinforced concrete poured onto it. As much as possible, we checked all the cubicles in those areas for any telephones, cellulars, radios, etc that might have been left turned on. We are not aware of any equipment operating at that frequency (I checked the CD which contains frequencies as of late 95 or early 96).

Any thoughts or suggestions. Have I missed something in the electronic or physical analysis

From: "Stan Miller" [stan_miller@pobox.tbe.com]

SUBJECT : RE>Frequency found 5/20/97 12:16 PM

Tim, although the layer of corrugated steel and concrete which separated the two floors seems impenetrable, what type activity was being conducted on the upper floor above the target area? If you have some heavy duty electonic-frequency generation/emission equipment, you could be getting filtered, although, strong signals. Obviously, not a very scientific assessment, but then I'm not a very scientific type person.

Did I mention to you that we have created an Underwriters Laboratories listed central alarm monitoring station at TBE in Huntsville? If you have anyh clients out there that have proprietary central stations and are looking for cost savings, they might want to contact me at (205) 726-4357 or "e" mail at stan.miller@pobox.teb.com

best regards, stan

From: John Runyon [runyon@sunline.net]
Subject: 879.745 Mc
That's right....MC, not MHz. I know what a cycle, or even a megacycle, represents, but Hertz was a German physicist or is a car rental agency.

Anyway.....879.745 is near cellualr channel 325 on 879.750 Mc, which is a data oly channel in the non-wireline service. Have you tried lisyening to it on a scannel, such as a PRO-2006? You should hear a 10 Kbit "buzz". Also, your freq falls in the old UHF TV channel 82 (879.25-882.83 MC).

If you tuned it in and listened to it, what did it sound like?

Bob

I responded:
It was a very strong signal but had very ragged slopes. At first glance, it could have been mistaken for a video signal, but the "noise" was wrong and the appearasnce was inconsistent with a video signal. I checked the signal as thoroughly as I could, but was unable to detect any portion of it that appeared to contain intelligence. Where the signal waas being received, there was nothing of importance occuring to warrant an exotic device--just a series of open cubicles situated between two walls. A coffee area was nearby and a conference room located about 20 or 25 feet away. The first and second floors were configured almost identically.

The signal was almost cylindrical in shape, basically extending from the floor of the first floor to the true ceiling of the second floor, and the signal appeared to be about the same on each floor.

Several hypothesis's have been extended to cover a "hot spot" which is reradiating a legal signal, a PC with Cellular capabilities built in where the user did not turn off the cellular section when the PC was "put to sleep", a device installed in the modules of the cubicles.

I would tend to agree with the first two (in the order presented) based on the signal analysis and the area of concern.

I'm still open to suggestions and expansion on the hypothesis's.

Tim

#11

From: "Mike Andrews" [mjandrews@worldnet.att.net]

Hello Tim,

I don't have anything listed on that frequency either. However, I have observed that my "900 Mhz" spread spectrum cordless phone generates a range of frequencies that begin near 850 Mhz and go to near 920 Mhz. Beware.

Other less ominous possibilities are:
It also occurred to me that the construction of the ceiling was such that heterodyning could occur as a result of non-linear mixing. This sometimes happens at poor connections on conductors (intentional or otherwise). I suggest looking for a couple of other frequencies in the area that are moderately strong and that have either a sum or difference frequency equal to 879.745.

As an example - I have a point in my home where I can monitor the audio from several commercial radio stations simultaneously. I have determined that the signals are being heterodyned and re-radiated at a junction in the house wiring. I fixed the problem once by tightening the "wire nuts" but it has since returned. A permanent fix would be to solder the connection and coat it with "No-Ox" to prevent the oxide layer that allows the non-linear mixing. It is definitely not a bug (in my case) as I zapped the wiring with a sizable RF pulse from a transmitter and found no subsequent change in the amplitude or characteristics of the signal. (In case anyone tries this - isolate the circuit before zapping it - you won't like what happens if you don't.)

A second possibility is equipment power supplies. There is quite a bit of equipment around that uses switching regulators. Typical frequencies generated are under 1 Mhz but I have seen harmonics up into the hundreds of Mhz.

A third possibility I can think of is a LAN. Do they have anything like a 10BaseT or 100BaseT LAN in the area? If so then there is a distinct possibility you are detecting RF leakage (as a harmonic). This would be bad from a TEMPEST perspective. Also - with the advent of readily available high speed processors (e.g., 586/pentium with 200 Mhz clocks)I suspect it would be possible to detect some harmonics from the on board clocks, etc.

The last possibility that comes to mind is - you may be encountering a "hot spot." These occur when the same signal is reflected into an area from several directions. You will find a point where the multi-pathed signal constructively interferes and results in a much higher signal level than encountered elsewhere. You can test this hypothesis with a directional antenna. At the hot spot - if that is what it is - you will find that the signal comes from 2 or more directions and is difficult to localize. Step out of the hot spot and the signal will either disappear completely (destructive interference) or show only one distinct source or direction.

Hope you find this useful.

Regards,

Mike Andrews

From: "Mike Andrews" [mjandrews@worldnet.att.net]

Hello Again,

You got my curiosity going (I hate when that happens) so I did some additional digging.

Here's something of interest. Based on this chart and the channel separation of .030 Mhz - the frequency of interest (879.745) falls between two control channels for a cellular telephone tower. Go figure.

Regards,

Mike

Found at: http://www.li.net/~j4dice/scanning_info/faf.html#CELL

Cellular Telephone

Channels Freqs (base)
800-832 869.040 - 870.000 RCC - voice
1-312 870.030 - 879.360 RCC - voice
313-333 879.390 - 879.990 RCC - voice
334-354 880.020 - 880.620 RCC - data
355-666 880.650 - 889.980 RCC - data
667-716 890.010 - 891.480 Telco - data
717-799 891.510 - 893.970 System

Mobiles transmit 45 Mhz below the base (824.040-848.970) and are usually repeated by the base. Channels are .030 Mhz apart

#12 Frequency found

From: Doug Ralph [doug.comsec@sympatico.ca]

Good hearing from you Tim.

My initial thoughts consist of a number of possibilities:

If that building has (or is near) cellular antennaes, you may be finding a 're-radiation' of the Cell Band edge marker from metal that likes that particular frequency and if exposed to a strong field nearby will re-radiate it !
May be a local oscillator from a 'control receiver' which has a device turned off (or on), or it may be an innocent local oscillator from a cell site receiver or maybe a portable cell unit which someone has turned on in the area and concealed so as to be called up (as some can be and used as a room probe).
May be a concealed 'digitial transmitter', thus no detectable audio.
May be a spread spectrum digital 900 MHz transmitter. Recently purchased a Uniden unit (cordless Phone) such as this, and the range is a good 1/2 mile, plus it can be activated as a wireless babysitter from the hand set, turning the base into a live room monitor. To listen to it with ordinary equipment, only a digital format can be heard... !

Will give it some more thought, but those are my initial feelings as possibilities - all the best - Doug Ralph

#14

From: RClark676@aol.com
Subject: Employment Searches

Tim,
I was wondering if anyone out there knows of a source(s) that can identify an individual's employer based on the individuals name, social security number, and date of birth. I am attempting to do this without a release from the individual. The only source that I have found so far wants $250 a search which is a little steep for my pocket book, since I have about 1100 searches to conduct, if I find out that it is feasible at a more reasonable cost. I would appreciate any help that could be provided.

Thanks,

Ron

#15

From: "Steve Uhrig" [Steve@swssec.com]

Once upon a midnight dreary, Tim Johnson pondered, weak and weary:
It turns out we picked up a signal (879.745)

Tim, look for anything with an oscillator. Sometimes the most innocent pieces of equipment can contain oscillators. Jim Ross once found an air freshener in a men's room radiating a strong enough signal to trip his crap from quite a distance away (not that I think he is competent, just using him as an example).

Photocopiers, clocks, timers, any office equipment, even motors or controls in HVAC systems. Fire alarm system. Electronic ballast in fluorescent lights, including emergency lights.

I am diabetic, and my blood glucose testing meter radiates a strong enough signal to trip my Scanlock at the other end of the office. A friend of mine has an insulin pump that squirts out a signal so strong she should modulate it and get a ham license.

The battery charger for my cell phone leaks a loud signal on 170-something megacycles.

Motion detectors from alarm systems?

Electronic timer on a coffee pot?

You of course know the source can be quite a distance away and the signal you are hearing is being re-radiated from some large mass of metal.

Would you be able to kill circuit breakers in the area one at a time until you lose the signal? Would at least steer you to the area to look the most carefully.

Were you able to look at the signal on a spectrum analyzer? Any modulation? How wide was it? Could it be a harmonic of something?

Electronics do not necessarily have to be turned on to radiate. Some stuff like chargers or others may have certain portions of the circuitry remaining active.

Would be interested in what you turn up on this.

Scanlock for sale on our website. Look under Products and hit the used equipment button.

Regards ...... Steve

Steve Uhrig, SWS Security, Maryland (USA)
Manufacturers of electronic surveillance and commo equip mailto:Steve@swssec.com
website http://www.swssec.com
tel +1+410-879-4035, fax +1+410-836-1190
Celebrating our 25th anniversary in 1997
"In God we trust, all others we monitor"

#16 Export of TSCM equipment

From: TOMB621@aol.com
Got it - thanks

BTW- I had a lengthy conversation with a Dept of Commerce Rep on licensing TSCM gear for use outside the US. She confirmed your information- there is a crackdown- I think she called it "on Electronic Counter-Surveillance Equipment". Anyway she said that the part of the procedure that takes longest is the "request for classification", which is part of the license application. It takes many weeks, maybe months, for that part to get action.

If you classify the stuff yourself, in the application, and in accordance with the reg (i.e.- use their numbers and description), you can cut out a lot of the time, and get a license in "maybe 10 days". There is an emergency (walk through) procedure, but they rarely let people use it. You have to try to justify an emergency situation, and she wouldn't even tell me the criteria (the message was "don't even try, you'll be wasting your time").

Trying to travel outside the US at this time with gear and no license would not be a wise move! Thanks for the heads up.

Tom

#17 And finally to close this page out, a bit of humor from #2 son.

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